Discussion about this post

User's avatar
Alex Popescu's avatar

I’m a bit skeptical that conscious wildlife has more episodes of pain than pleasure. One issue here is salience. We remember painful events much more vividly than pleasurable events (think of how when you’re having fun, time flies by so fast, but the inverse is true for painful moments).

Also, if you’ve ever been depressed then you have an experience of what it’s like to live in a state of anhedonia, where the smallest pleasures of life are taken away from you. Everything you do, from scrolling your phone, to getting out of bed, probably elicits at least some very small dopamine rush, otherwise you wouldn’t be incentivized to do these things.

This is driven home very vividly when you get depressed and realize how you took for granted the smallest of things, and that fulfilling such activities is actually quite difficult when you don’t get even the remotest pleasure from them. Since most wildlife is behaviorally active, anhedonia doesn’t seem to be the default state of animals in nature.

Also, you have to take into account adaptability. We set our mental expectation relative to our environment, and this seems to be a universal rule for all animals. If you’re an average person who witnessed a gruesome murder in person, you might be severely traumatized. And if you experienced these events recurrently, you might indeed be in a state of constant anxiety at first. But people eventually adapt, if you’re a Roman soldier who is on campaign, such things are par for the course, I doubt they would even register that negatively besides eliciting a brief thought “ooh that’s screwed up…. anyways”

It’s like being in prison. Mentally excruciating for the first few months, but eventually most people will settle into a comfortable routine. I think most wildlife are mentally well adjusted to their environment, since they have to be in an evolutionary sense. Just because you would suffer tremendously from anxiety and pain when put in an environment similar to what a deer might experience, doesn’t mean that the deer feels the same way (on a side note, constant anxiety comes with issues like weight loss, so I doubt they would be incentivized to feel this way).

Of course there are just really bad events that most wildlife will experience (e.g. being eaten alive), but it’s not clear that such episodes outweigh the pleasurable states (or just plain contentment) throughout an animals lifetime.

Expand full comment
JustAnOgre's avatar

I think this just proves that utilitarian assumptions are wrong. If there is one thing that makes perfect intuitive sense, it is that life is good. It is the very definition of good itself. Not the absence of suffering is good, but life.

I don't think I need to prove it, because at some level you need unprovable axioms. What would be more pleasant to look at, an alien planet teeming with life, or a barren rock like Mars? You seem unprovable axioms at some point, or truly terminal terminal goals that are by necessity unproven and non-rational, and I think the immediately obvious one is that interesting things are good.

Expand full comment
5 more comments...

No posts